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Interview by President of Belarus
Alexander Lukashenko to German Newspaper “Die Welt”
Minsk, January 22, 2007
Alexander Rahr:
Thank you for receiving me.
The President:
I will try to make our discussion useful
for you and readers of “Die Welt”.
I am aware that you analyze all activities that take place in the
Commonwealth of Independent States. I am ready to answer all your questions
absolutely sincerely.
Alexander Rahr:
You don’t speak in the West very often, I
think, one might say you are one of the mysterious leaders in the
post-Soviet area. The West is not very much aware about you, your friends.
Would you please one more time briefly introduce yourself to the West? How
do you position yourself now after many years of your presidency in such key
country like Belarus?
The President:
But it seemed to me they knew me very well
in Europe. However, I can put into inverted commas a word “know”. After all,
sometimes they “know so much” writing such fantastic things… You know I
probably am the most open President. I say that because I never deal with
PR. I am saying it sincerely: I do not have any PR men, none at all. Indeed,
I live a regular life. If I go in for sports, I do it in public and I do not
make 20-30 film clips to make them “a show” on TV. Of course, by using
state-of-the-art TV technologies you may make yourself both a great vault
jumper and a great wrestler… I have never dealt with it.
However, they developed their own
stereotype of Lukashenko in the West and journalists, your colleagues,
created it. I take it easy. Earlier, being young and inexperienced I reacted
to that painfully, but now I got used to it and try not to pay attention.
In your country, Germany, and in the West
in general there is a firm opinion within political circles that Lukashenko
is the “last dictator of Europe”. It is not only mean, but ridiculous if we
objectively analyze this absurd cliché. President of a country like Belarus
cannot be a dictator! We do not have nuclear weapons, we do not have
self-sufficient economy like Russia or the United States, and we do not have
that power to dictate conditions to anybody. Majority of the people under no
compulsion elect me as President. However, evidently, someone wishes to
create a negative image of me. I understand why it happens. Probably, you
understand as well. Someone does not like the policy we pursue, especially
social policy. They do not like that we have neither sold out for nothing,
nor given away our economy, but on the contrary, we have modernized it.
Unlike Russia, we did not go for thoughtless privatization. If we agree to
privatization, we consider every single enterprise separately. We put as a
top priority – as the main value – a human being. The evidence of it is a
gap between rich and poor – one to three. In Sweden, as far as I know, it is
one to three. Or else, it is one to four?
Alexander Rahr:
It is one to four.
The President:
It is close to that in Germany. In Russia
it is one to 24 or one to 25. Here we go, please compare. This is why they
treat Lukashenko like that. European Union has been tirelessly criticizing
us, but nobody has thought: why after such massive criticism people in
Belarus actively support Lukashenko? Because many of journalists,
politicians, experts do not think: does what they write and say about
represent the facts? When they present a quiet and calm Belarus like some
kind of an Eastern “despotism”? So, when our Belarusians read it and this is
highly literate nation, they think: is it really written about is? It is not
true! That is why all money spent for anti-Belarus propaganda goes down the
drain. We do not have any “dictatorship”, a normal person, who understands
his place in politics and what place our Belarus should have in the world,
leads the country. Another thing why some “critics” have a problem with me,
because there are no reasons they can “pinch” me for. I did not steal the
money, did not put them in banks in the US, in Europe, in Russia or anywhere
else. Therefore, notorious attempts to “search Lukashenko’s funds” have led
to nothing. My credo – is honesty!
Alexander Rahr:
I would like to make a brief comment. I
think, if I can put it this way, some sort of its own religion, culture is
being developed in the West – these are the Western values, they even make a
fetish of it somewhere. But in your small country, in Belarus, which is
considered as a fort-post of Russia by those who does not understand it,
national state is still being developed. Poland and the Baltic States – have
given away sovereignty to Brussels. There is a discord, and this is where
all these passions and misunderstanding of reality in your country comes
from.
The President:
It is absolutely right. They have their
own values in the West, we have ours. However, it does not mean that our
values are 100 hundred percent contrary to the Western European ones. No
way! Spiritual, moral values do not appear without reasons; they crystallize
during the development of a state. We are an integral part of Europe after
all, the heart of Europe. How can we not practice European values if we have
lived all the time together? It’s been bad, it’s been good, but it has been
this way! Nevertheless, we have our own, you said it right, national
interests as well. Just as Germany has and other states have! You noticed it
very shrewdly that we have recently been developing a sovereign, independent
state. I will underline: with substantial differences from what is going on
in the European Union. We have a more social economy. We do not reject the
role of a public sector and have earnestly proved that under equal
conditions it can develop not worse than a private one. I will give an
example. I have been at “Atlant” recently. Share of energy carriers is
around 5 percent in its production costs. Just like in Germany. But ten
years ago it was 15-20 percent. What a stupendous change for 10 years!
“Atlant” – is a joint-stock company, but in fact it is the state-run
enterprise. Not every one likes such situation in European Union, because,
as you said, there are their “own values” over there. First of all, private
property. Here is a “sacred cow” we have to pray for. But what about
“multistructural economy”, market competition? Yes, we have our own
particularities. Yes, we are too sincere in politics, the President first of
all. If we see that something is wrong, that we don’t agree with something,
we consider it necessary to speak openly it. This is also something many
don’t like. Here they start “to make appropriate clothes” for Lukashenko.
It also seems to me that the European
Union, before taking any steps toward Belarus, making too sharp statements
addressed at us, should simply calculate some things.
You know, during more than ten years of my
presidency the current crisis with Russia is the only moment, when Germany
and other countries got interested in what is it really going on in Belarus?
They came, observed, analyzed information. And for the fist time the
assessment was close to the objective one. This is what Belarusians
immediately recognized and they reacted to that. However, I will repeat,
this has happened for the first time during all modern history.
Alexander Rahr:
In other words, this crisis can unite the
West with Belarus now?
The President:
I don’t know if it unites us or not, but
this crises showed a lot. Someday I said sharply, but I will repeat it for
those in the West who rubbed their hands and thought they said “now the
Lukashenko regime will collapse”: today – we, tomorrow – you.
Alexander Rahr:
But the economy of Belarus, is it
dependent enough on Russia?
The President:
Yes, just as economy of Germany is very
much dependent on other states. Probably less, but it is also dependent.
Russian economy very much depends on the European and American ones,
becoming more and more dependent on the Chinese. Since these markets are
solvent, it is very profitable for Russia to sell raw materials over there.
Indeed, raw materials – it is life for Russia. Generally speaking,
everything is interdependent. By the way, powerful Germany is not less
dependent on energy resources and energy carriers than Belarus.
Alexander Rahr:
But Putin said one day that 41 percent of
your budget was Russian subsidies.
The President:
This comedy was played intentionally in
Russian mass media. Any economist, at least slightly competent, will laugh
at such estimates. I would like to say that the people in Russia reacted
very negatively to all that and extremely negatively assessed the position
of the Russian leadership. It is worth to say that the Russians, Russian
people treat us very heartily. Here you are, a man who probably used to live
in Asia…
Alexander Rahr:
…I was born there…
The President:
Well, you have traveled a lot around the
world… But I can see a warmth in your eyes as you speak about our county.
You have come here a couple of times, something makes you related to us. You
are aware that Russians and Belarusians fought in that horrible war. We lost
one third of our population, no country lost so many people as Belarus. When
it was too difficult, Belarusians have always been with Russians. And such
things are not forgotten in Russia, it is a part of a historic memory of the
people. It cannot be knocked out! And when the story about energy carriers
started (it did not happen for the first time – they stopped gas supplies in
2004, and oil supplies this year), all of this was extremely negatively
perceived by the Russian people. Leitmotif of the blame was the following:
“why are you “strangling” our brothers?” And somebody had to make excuses
somehow… Therefore, they made a performance on TV in order to show: “There,
there, don’t worry, we have raised gas prices more than twofold, but see how
generously we subsidize the economy of Belarus...
It was “clarified” this way: “Had we sold
to Belarusians gas for $200, like we did to Germany, we (“Gazprom”) would
have additionally received $2 billion, had we imposed a $170 oil duty
instead of $170, we would have received other $3 billion, that makes in
total $5 billion”. $5 billions from $14 billions of the budget of Belarus:
here we have 41 percent. However, let’s carefully look into this game of
abstract figures. Who in Belarus would pay $200 for Russian gas? Nobody
would. Who would pay $500 for Russian oil? Nobody would. Indeed, they
offered us oil at prices higher than the world prices! Therefore, we refused
such oil. But since they abruptly imposed the duty we also did it. What is
wrong with it? We responded adequately, we are the people who respect
themselves. This is a normal civilized practice. I don’t even say that
thanks to the attack of “Gazprom” and oil producers all our agreements on
equal conditions have been crushed. Well, let’s not talk about it for a
moment.
Honestly, had the Russian Federation
subsidized Belarus for amount of $5 billion, we would have had quite
different relations. But in reality they doubled prices for gas in 2004 and
then, a year and a half later, doubled them again. Please, tell me, what
economy will be able to afford it? And how such pressure could be
characterized? “Generosity”? Excuse me!
Alexander Rahr:
However, they say you resell oil.
The President:
Let’s figure it out. What was the reason
for the conflict? We bought oil from Russia at market prices, refined it at
our oil refineries, and we have two high-capacity oil refineries – in
Novopolotsk and Mosyr, and traded oil products: diesel fuel, gasoline,
lubricants like Germany does or the USA… Regular practice. Moving on. Out of
20 million tons which we refined about 6 million was consumed in our
country, the rest was sold. We had certain income from it. But why did they
feel so jealously about it in Russia? Well, this is because all of their
companies rushed to cooperate with us. Because we have modernized
enterprises. Today the processing depth is about 85 percent. This is the
world level. One more year and we will have the processing depth of 95
percent! Russia used to have 50 percent, it still has the same level,
because enterprises have not been modernized, they preferred easily and
without problems pump crude oil out to the West. We are an industrial
country, and we had to produce high-quality fuel, which we can sell to
developed countries to get income. And when Russia saw us receiving income,
they started: “But this is our oil! Impose export duties on diesel fuel,
gasoline and give it to our budget.” I answer to that: “Listen, ask
Americans, Germans, they also buy oil from you, refine it, and tell them to
give the money to your budget coming from oil products.” Agree that “claims”
addressed to us with regard to duties are absurd from an economic point of
view!
Alexander Rahr:
It means there is an evident political
intrigue. But could it be that Putin wants to stay in office for the third
term, may be they will demand unification from you?
The President:
I have never heard from Putin that he
would like to stay in office for the third term this way. I have never
heard. Let’s come back to the history: when two terms of my presidency
finished I asked the people: “Do you allow me to participate in elections
for the third time or not?” The referendum was held in the country. I was
criticized for that. Yes, they can criticize, but I did it in an open and
legally irreproachable way. And there was no fraud, because the majority of
voters said clearly “yes”! I was permitted not to run for the third term,
but I was provided with an opportunity to run for elections and compete with
other politicians.
Now I am answering the question about
Belarus becoming a part of Russia. Under President Lukashenko it will never
happen. Never have I said that Belarus would be a part of either Germany,
Poland, Russia, or Lithuania. Never! I was elected by the people as the
first President of Belarus not to destroy the country. President and the
institution of presidency – this is the main factor of sovereignty and
independence of a state. So, was I to become the first President to ruin the
country, to ruin hopes of the Belarusian people to have their own national
hearth? This is not a matter for discussion! They blame me in Russia: “Here,
Lukashenko will never agree for a union”. What union? We have everything
written in our Treaty on the establishment of the Union State. It is said
there clearly and unambiguously that we should elaborate a Constitution and
adopt it at referendum. Russia rejected to adopt the Constitution at
referendum because they could not agree with equal basis for that union.
Alexander Rahr:
Will they raise the issue of Russian
rouble or not?
The President:
As regards the rouble. When they
understood in Moscow that Belarus would never be a part of Russia, and they
didn’t want to adopt a normal Constitution, they proposed: make Russian
rouble your national currency, it is profitable for you… We have analyzed
it: what for? Well, if you are so kind and want benefits for our economy and
our people just simply don’t lift prices for gas, for oil! Who does not
understand it: loss of national currency is immediate loss of independency!
They It took the European Union quite some time to achieve it, through the
system of multilateral agreements. But here – let’s make it tomorrow! This
is like in the Soviet time, it will be necessary to go from Minsk to Kremlin
for your paycheck. And this is in the time when the Belarusian rouble has
become as strong as ever. And inflation is under control. Indeed, who would
support to reject normally functioning currency in such situation? Nobody
will support it. Because money is money, this is the basis for everything.
This is freedom both for human being, and for the state. And when we said:
“Fellows, we were not against common currency, but let’s solve all these
issues comprehensively, starting from the currency, foreign policy, internal
policy to the structure of our state and forming the government”. All this
should be written in Constitution to be adopted at referendum. But we were
told: “No, Constitution is one thing, we were not ready for it, but let’s
quickly introduce the currency. It smells like dictate…”
Alexander Rahr:
Can you imagine that sometimes, in 10-20
years, Belarus may start using euro?
The President:
Everything is possible in this life. I
look at states which today have entered the European Union, which started
using euro – you know, we are ahead of that states in some things. Frankly
speaking: Belarus is very perspective country in terms of universal
cooperation. We do not have external debt, we have low inflation, we have –
this is very important – hard-working people, economy runs intensively, we
produce competitive products. We are always able to earn the money for the
budget. And if the European Union could open its borders for our goods, we
would easily compete there either in quality or in price. Generally
speaking, we do not hurry anywhere, I just speak about the potential. It is
recognized by both Germans by other Europeans: because of its economic
stability, as for now Belarus meets all parameters for entering the European
Union. Even more than some new members of the EU.
Alexander Rahr:
Are you not afraid of the Western
investors?
The President:
Why should we be afraid of them? On the
contrary, we invite investors. Recent developments have clearly demonstrated
that we have to work more actively with the Western and American investors.
Then some of Russian oligarchs will stop exerting pressure on Belarus in
such a brutal way. Otherwise, don’t you know, some of gentlemen are itching
to “grab” our well-functioning and profitable enterprises. Indeed, after
that we would become a “democracy”! But these are, I underline, refinery
enterprises are located in market crossroads. I have already told that crude
oil goes to Belarusian refineries, it is deeply refined there – here we have
the highest quality product! Metal comes to Belarus – here we have
automobiles, tractors, which are successfully sold out throughout the world.
Let’s take, for instance, BelAZ trucks – 33 percent of the world market of
dump trucks belongs to the Belarusian Automobile Works. There were
far-sighted people in the State Planning Committee of the former USSR: they
planned movement of resources from Siberia, Far East through Belarus,
Ukraine and the Baltic States so that these resources were processed here,
and then final product was sold at powerful American and European markets.
We quite successfully modernized economy
which we “inherited”. And today some people have their eyes wide open.
Therefore, we made it clear and firmly stated that we would offer concrete
programs to the Western investors and receive them with pleasure. Doing
business in Belarus is profitable today! I have already been receiving
signals from Germany that many of concerns are ready to set up their
productions in our country. Pragmatic businessmen are also ready both to
become shareholders and to be involved privatization on a reasonable basis.
We will consider such projects very seriously. Indeed, there is a nuance:
had the “Beltransgaz” or oil pipelines been incorporated with Germans or
American companies, would Russia taken these unprecedented steps? Never!
And we understand it as well. We
will build new enterprises – we will build no less than 300 of them within
the next five years. Within the next five years we will also modernize all
existing enterprises.
Alexander Rahr:
Ukraine, Belarus and Baltic States, this
axis from Baltic sea to Black sea…
The President:
The Baltic-Black seas region, as it is
called by Americans and Europeans.
Alexander Rahr:
Is it as the alternative for the Common
Economic Area?
The President:
You know, I have never considered this
option as some kind of a global initiative. But, it is the fact that we have
to fruitfully cooperate. We are developing business-like relations with the
Ukraine. We are holding intensive negotiations with Azerbaijan, with other
oil-producing states, to make them come to our enterprises. We are ready to
create joint ventures with them. They will be interested in supplying oil
over here, it is not far, in refining (such schemes have already been worked
out) and in selling products on the European market. Then we will see who
and how will react to that. This is also one of the ways to ensure energy
security. We should not depend on one source – an economic axiom! We have to
diversify our imports of hydrocarbon raw materials urgently, as other
countries do, as everybody is doing now. As soon as we have it done, we will
become even stronger as a sovereign and independent state. We have all
prerequisites for that.
Alexander Rahr:
I would like to ask an exceptionally
political question. I think there is a dilemma in politics. At the meetings
in Europe where I have participated, they frequently asked the question:
Alexander Lukashenko is really a popular leader, the people will vote for
him in any case, but why at elections, even now in January, so called true
opposition was not provided with an opportunity to speak in mass media just
as he did? I think this is the main subject criticism by the West with
respect to the democracy in Belarus. I think this is the one of such
obstacles that could be removed or clarified in order to provide better
understanding by the West of the situation in Belarus.
The President:
Let’s start from saying that the declared
“equality”, which the West wants to see in Belarus, between power and
opposition, doesn’t exist anywhere in the world.
Alexander Rahr:
That is right.
The President:
Well, does Batasuna frequently come out on
Spanish TV or does Sinn Fein have its own TV time in London? … And who knows
what is really going on in Russia now? Nobody knows anything. Figuratively
speaking, everybody is “taken care of” – from so-called independent NTV and
to the state-run RTR. Developments of recent days demonstrated that all mass
media, as the people say, played the same tune. The matter became a paradox.
When I was going to come to Russia in those days, I wanted to meet with
journalists to express my point of view. It is normal, isn’t it? But
“censors” “sealed all areas up” so as not to allow me meet the journalists
under any circumstances! What was it – “freedom of the press”?
Alexander Rahr:
However, in the Ukraine the situation is
different.
The President:
As regards the Ukraine… God save us from
some Ukrainian realities. I am saying this with the feeling of a great love
to Ukrainians…
Alexander Rahr:
I am talking about mass media.
The President:
Mass media is not only a mirror of
society. Mass media is also a very menacing weapon. Figuratively speaking, a
journalist is a man with a gun. He can “shoot down” any democracy, any
totalitarianism, unfortunately, he can thoughtlessly ruin even the best, the
most convenient for majority of citizens society. In my opinion, a
journalist, above all, should be a responsible man. Moving on.
One cannot say that mass media in
Russia, in the Ukraine are “out of control.” They are controlled, but in
spite of apparent disagreements, there are consolidation and total
dependence on owners of mass media there. They fight against each other
occasionally. Therefore, it creates a visibility of public polemics, indeed,
in reality there is a fight for business interests. In particular, in the
Ukraine, the state is being shacken at that. Is it good?
However, I am not criticizing
anybody in this case. I just express my opinion about the degree of freedom
and of responsibility. By the way, in general I am not a supporter of
parliamentary republics in the post-Soviet states. It seems that we are
not ready for it yet. We used to have the parliament as the main acting
person. I also was a member of parliament. And there we went – 350 people
sit and nobody was specifically responsible for anything, at the same time
many came to the Supreme Council under some “lists”. Therefore, they pushed
“the button” as they suggested by their “feeling.” As a result, the full
irresponsibility was hidden behind the discussion front; the country was
going to abyss. Meanwhile in Minsk, they were competing who would outcry one
another? There were fights, they made gossips public. They not do it to
search for the truth, but more often – for self-advertisement. Meanwhile,
everything was on the road to ruin. And only after appearance of the new
Constitution, after elections of the President we could manage to stabilize
the situation and to get what we have today. So, ask the people what they
prefer: ridiculous fights between MPs in front of TV cameras or responsible,
even dull work on the development of laws, which make life worth and
prosperous? No. The “democratic” form must not suppress the substance.
You’ll see, the situation in the Ukraine
will be stabilized in the nearest future, and another, may be not so noisy
but more responsible mass media will appear! Although, there are such mass
media over there even now. But, is it going on in Germany today what we can
see in the Ukraine? The Germany has a quite different level of legal
culture, there is the law over there, and Alexander Rahr will never break it
in his life. If he dreamt up something, wrote something “wrong”, he knows
that he has to be responsible for it…
Alexander Rahr:
Yes.
The President:
In the Ukraine, in Russia and in our
country we as well still have many problems in this matter. Why am I saying
“in our country as well”? Actually, the opposition press is not totally
prohibited in the country. Indeed, Russian mass media “shoots us through.”
And our political opposition figures are the most welcome guests there.
Americans promised many millions of euros for “a struggle”: provided to both
“Euronews”, and “RTVI, and, of course, to “Radio Freedom”. They built
stations all around us, “shoot us through” from the West to the East, from
the East to the West. We have an open information space. Do not listen to
those who say that our opposition doesn’t have an opportunity to deliver its
opinion to the people. Since Belarus is a compact country, we have good
roads, one can cross it from one end to another within one day, visit any
family, bring any newspaper, any letter, any party “propaganda leaflet”.
That is exactly what the opposition has been doing. Who does not allow it?
Some “leaders” have recently announced before elections: we will go door to
door, house to house. That’s right, it is necessary to visit the people, to
deliver them your position. But these are just empty words. People reject
chatters. Why? Because some people instead of walking “door to door” more
frequently idle about with the extended hand in the West, including your
place, Germany, begging for money and then pocketing this money. How can a
jobless chairman of the party, even if gets $100 per month as he declares,
afford to purchase two cars and build a cottage just outside Minsk? Well,
let’s imagine such situation in Germany. The police would immediately get
interested and ask: where from? But at our place they feel themselves
comfortable.
Alexander Rahr:
We live in the era of CNN. Many
journalists in the West prefer informing about Belarus in the biased way.
But if we watch TV shots about the police violently dispersing peaceful
demonstrations…
The President:
But in France and in Germany the police
acts the same way. And it uses tear-gas. Thank God, we do not take such
extreme remedies.
Alexander Rahr:
I think how to make at such crucial time
for Belarus a bridge aimed at better understanding by Europe of your
situation. What do you think?
The President:
Today is the moment when Europeans have
realized what Belarus is, they have understood that they their security is
connected with Belarus as well. After all, we have said it continuously in
public: you have the problem with illegal migration. But, today, at most ten
illegal immigrants can slip through our borders to the West, but earlier
thousands of them easily could. So, we put barriers on their way. We act
fairly with respect to Europe, we put barrier on the way of
drug-trafficking, potential terrorists. We are doing all of this at our own
expense. And Europe deprives or is trying to deprive us of preferences…
Alexander Rahr:
I think that Europe extends a hand now.
The President:
Today everything depends on Europe. We are
serious people, having no overestimated self-appraisal. Moreover, as I
became President I said that we would develop the country to make it similar
to Sweden and Germany. Being historian by education, I know very well both
the economy and social sphere in these countries. We are doing our best to
provide Belarusians with the same standards of life. It’s clear that this
path is not an easy one. But indeed we have developed our policy towards
this direction. I wish everybody could understand us right. They push us in
the back at times. But we can tolerate, because we know – everything should
be achieved by our own labor. We will succeed! To those who do not
understand simple things we say straight: don’t you want to assist? Well,
then don’t hinder, our people will figure everything out by themselves. We
do not need neither “colored” nor “gas revolutions”! I believe the moment
has come when we really have to cooperate in a more responsible manner. We
have to do it like we are doing, you and me, in front of each other,
tete-a-tete, to sit together with serious European politicians and to
discuss all topical issues.
Instead of that, we were denied entry.
What a medieval absurdity! Are these “Europeans values” as well? Well, we
have easily gone without protocol visits for two years. But who does need
it? Doesn’t Europe really understand that they act to its detriment as well?
Is it really right to create “iron curtains”! Whom did it help and when? Is
it really possible to develop a dialog by such means in general? We have
nothing to talk about over the fence. This is counterproductive.
Alexander Rahr:
I just regret about the statement recently
made, in which some Europeans said: “We would like to cooperate, but again
there was fraud somewhere during the local elections”.
The President:
Alexander, this “statement” had been
prepared half a year
before. Even in that time it was clear in advance what, for instance, the
Americans would say about our elections. But it’s a pity that Europeans
saluted to it immediately. Why Germany should quarrel with the US because of
something like Belarus, why should Chancellor Merkel argue about it with
President Bush. But, may be they have to argue occasionally. After all, the
USA is far from being always right, look, how his own Congress argues with
Bush.
It seems to me that
it is necessary for Europe, and first of all for Germany, to change the
stand on this issue. Because it is not only an industrial engine but in
general – is a center of Europe. It presides over the European Union now.
What prevents the leadership of Germany from asking a simple question: what
is really going on in Belarus? Enough of the listening to exhausted records
of those who has made politics their business. They will further speak about
the same. But if they invite citizen Alexander Rahr to Bundestag and ask
him: here you are, you often visit Minsk, you understand the Belarusians,
you have friends there, you have met with the President, please honestly
share with us your impressions! For instance, I don’t trust one-way
information. If I don’t understand anything, for instance, about the US,
i.e. there are a lot of people who go there frequently, I invite and
question them. So, I make more or less objective impression. Therefore, had
it been important for Europe to understand us sincerely and not to act under
patterns of others, responsible politicians would have started from it.
Alexander Rahr:
Germans hold in Belarus “The Minsk Forum”,
a very difficult discussion also takes place there. But I agree that it
could be done much better. However, it seems to me, we had entered into the
new times, where transit states like Belarus, like the Ukraine started
playing entirely different role, and this is what both Germany and the
European Union will be interested in.
The President:
You know, by God Russia was given
resources. And this is their wealth and property, this is their instrument
to influence processes in the world. God granted us with our geographical
location as our resource – this is what you call a transit state. Why should
we be deprived of the right to use this resource the way Russia uses its
resource?
Alexander Rahr:
It is interesting, yes; you put the
question in the right way.
The President:
We also have the right to use it. We are
developing an agreement now which we will forward to the Russian Federation,
imposing by analogy with the US laws a civilized duty for the land under
pipelines. Don’t we have the right to impose it? And it will be fair and
honest compensation for the increase of prices the Russian Federation has
introduced today. Absolutely in the market spirit.
Alexander Rahr:
It is possible to think out how to make
pan-European Charter with the European Union now…
The President:
I have already said that we are ready to
cooperate with everyone to ensure our national security, to observe our
interests. Undoubtedly, with the Europeans. The Ukraine and Belarus are the
main transit states. I believe we will come to an agreement. Other countries
– Poland, the Baltic States – will join us. This idea had been offered to us
for quite some time already – consolidation of transit states. We would
together protect our interests. This lies ahead of us. Therefore, we are
searching for an alternative today. And we do not exclude from the
alternative the participation of our European partners. We want to cooperate
with Europe. The European Union is our main trade and economic partner after
Russia. But the desperate attempts “to push us out” of the General Agreement
on tariffs, on preferences are simply out of place. Well, we will live with
the loss of $300 million. But why the Europeans need it – it is impossible
to understand! Moreover, some politicians ask us to search for a
compensation of $300 million. The shortest and the most profitable way is
the same: movement of your products to Russia and back through Belarus. It
is not necessary to impose duties, as it is done as regards Russia – $45 per
ton of oil; it is enough to take $1 per ton of cargo – and we will
compensate everything with interest, we will earn a billion. Does anybody
need it?
I think nobody does.
Alexander Rahr:
No…
The President:
Certainly.
After all, the entire civilized
world moves in another direction. If you advocate “equal access to mass
media by authorities and opposition”, why do you exclude this principle in
economy? Why do you put us “out of context”? On the contrary, you should
bring Belarus closer to you in order to have a normal neighboring partner
who will further protect you from bandits, terrorists, illegal migrants.
Figuratively speaking, you will “blow up”
if the Ukraine and Belarus, i.e. transit states, take a selfish stand.
However, we are doing a good thing and we will, you just treat us with
dignity, thank us at least sometimes for our good deeds.
Alexander Rahr:
I think the year 2007 will change many
things. The question is, of course, how Russia will react. Putin as well
does not want to go down in history as a man, who ruled Russia for 8 years,
but reintegration failed.
The President:
If political leaders in Russia had been
more responsible on issues of Belarusian-Russian relations, we would have
had different results. Why had they introduced a considerable number of
frontier points? Who needs it? When we in response recently introduced local
customs control – immediately there was a line of automobiles up to Moscow!
Do Russians need it?
I think they do not.
We do not need it either.
The EU definitely does not need it.
If they had thought in the Kremlin about integration, they would have not
destroyed what had already been created! Why had they denounced existing
treaties and agreements?! Indeed, they publicly, by note stated that they
denounced the Treaty on equal economic conditions. Why?
Is that an example for others? In
my opinion, if other states now conclude treaties with Russia they would do
it having this bad example in mind. Sometimes they blame me saying it is my
fault that Russia received the image blow after the recent “oil” dispute.
But it is not my fault. This is the fault of those who shut down a valve
toward Europe. As a result, they beat themselves.
Alexander Rahr:
Is there a need for man-to-man talk with
the President of Russia?
The President:
Do you mean that Europeans need a
man-to-man talk with Vladimir Vladimirovich? Because we always talk with him
in an open manner. If you had heard our talks you would have understood that
we are at least real friends…
Alexander Rahr:
Still?..
The President:
Despite these conflicts we discuss
problems in an absolutely normal manner. We argue, even swear sometimes,
which is inadmissible between other presidents, we are just friends,
therefore we can argue with each other, at times quite roughly speak about
our attitude to this or that issue. We don’t have bad relations between the
presidents.
You know, with regard to prices on gas, on
oil he openly expressed his opinion to me. Of course, I can have a different
view on it, but he spoke to me about it in open manner. I highly appreciate
it. And he is aware that I understand only open and sincere policy. Other
kind of policy I just don’t accept.
Therefore, I certainly know the President
of the Russian Federation very well. And you, do not demonize him…
Alexander Rahr:
But I don’t demonize Putin at all. I think
that you will easily come to agreement either with the next president in
2008. However, it is only about an idea which is behind of it. It seemed he
had some idea: during his presidency, when everything is so right and stable
in Russia, to unite the Slavic world. He came back to the idea, which you
pushed forward in 1998-1999 when Yeltsin did not want it.
The President:
I will not agree. If Vladimir
Vladimirovich would have liked to unite the Slavic world, to my point of
view, it is not supposed to have been done that way. And it is not true that
Yeltsin did not want it. Do you know why the Union State has appeared? We
started doing this with Yeltsin.
Alexander Rahr:
Yes, I know.
The President:
At that time, Russia met our wishes.
However, at that time both oil and gas cost pennies. Nevertheless, that was
a difficult time for Russia, very difficult. But Yeltsin met our wishes,
first of all wishes of Belarusians, because he could see a reciprocal
movement. What for? In order to show the example to the Ukraine and then to
Kazakhstan. And Russia was about to unite around itself these states.
Yeltsin did not like it very much when they said “big brother”. He treated
it very tremulously because he knew: in each of the states national elites
had emerged and they had already made themselves known. He was very careful
on issues of sovereignty, independence. He understood that Russia, not by
force, but by other means, was able to unite new states around itself. And
such attractive example appeared – Belarus and Russia. And we were creating
this Union as an example for others. Boris Nikolayevich used to speak about
it frequently and now is speaking about it to the leadership of Russia. And
when the new leadership started to torpedo these processes, I said firmly:
we are not giving others the best example. This is what the Union was
created for – to demonstrate to all through the example of Belarus and
Russia what we wanted and what kind of union we wanted to create. So what
did we demonstrate?
Alexander Rahr:
“The orange revolution” is now over in the
Ukraine, Yanukovich is to be there for a long time. Kazakhstan is ready to
move closer to Russia.
The President:
Really?!
Alexander Rahr:
Of course, not politically, but still “the
Eurasian idea”…
The President:
In other words, where it is profitable…
Alexander Rahr:
Yes…
The President:
Well, everybody is ready: to “be friends”
where it is profitable. But to lose something – after all, for benefits from
Russia it is necessary to give something away to Russia – not every leader
wants that. Indeed, we did it: we gave something away to Russia, and Russia
did it to us, and we wrote it in the Treaty on the establishment of the
Union State. Having in mind that Belarusians and Russians should not be
foreigners to each other. This was the main idea of the union.
Alexander Rahr:
I think we have had quite comprehensive and interesting
interview. Thank you, Alexander
Grigoryevich.
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